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	<title>Comments on: So, what if Manto was 100% right about AIDS?</title>
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		<title>By: Dr. Manto Tshabalala Msimang &#8211; fare well, honourable one! &#124; Operation Paradise</title>
		<link>http://www.orgoniseafrica.com/blog/so-what-if-manto-was-100-right-about-aids/comment-page-1/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Manto Tshabalala Msimang &#8211; fare well, honourable one! &#124; Operation Paradise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orgoniseafrica.com/blog/?p=62#comment-192</guid>
		<description>[...] What if  Manto was 100 right about AIDS? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What if  Manto was 100 right about AIDS? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: orgonise</title>
		<link>http://www.orgoniseafrica.com/blog/so-what-if-manto-was-100-right-about-aids/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>orgonise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orgoniseafrica.com/blog/?p=62#comment-191</guid>
		<description>Dear Paul,
obviously you have a very different outlook on life and how &quot;truth&quot; is determined in society.
When I speak of science, I do not necessarily mean &quot;approved&quot; science.
I believe our constitution and if not the constitution, than natural law, gives us the right to investigate our reality freely and protected from harassment by entrenched interests, be that economic ineterests or the interest of academia not to have the foundations of their self-image  shaken.
That means of course without approval by any council or body or &quot;fraternity&quot;. (The biggest fraternity is the masonic order and you will be guessing by now that I don&#039;t have too much love lost on them)
Honesty of the researcher and the consistent results of a method will always prevail over irrelevant administrative hurdles.
The systematic destruction of every initiative that Manto was proposing was never based on &quot;science&quot; and that you surely know.

It was ridicule, innuendo and character assassination.

Truth is not declared by acclamation and cannot be voted over.
I do not claim to be an expert and will not be drawn into hair-splitting arguments.
For your own education and that of all those who might be watching our little exchange, I challenge you to present a single serious study (according to your own criteria) which proves the claim that &quot;ARVs are life prolonging&quot; drugs. It may be for any of the known antiretrovirals, I don&#039;t care. You will find none.
The studies on which the approvals of ARVs for the treatment of AIDs were based were flawed. Mortalities were booked in the wron group and the whole thing looks very much like scientific fraud if investigated closer.
The Movie &quot;The constant gardener&quot; is giving a hidden account of the study that lead to the approval of Nevirapine, btw, even though in the movie it is made to look like the ARVs are not ther prob, but some other drug.
I&#039;m not even asking you to show a study that &quot;proves&quot; that HIV casues AIDS.
You would be staring into an abyss.
Let&#039;s take it one step at the time.
In the meantime I hold that depending on the severity of their affliction 90-99 percent of the people who have benefetid from Tina&#039;s nutritional health programme have fully recovered, not just walked a few steps, if you know what I mean. These cases have been followed over weeks and are well documented.

If you were enthusiastic about &quot;combating AIDS&quot; as so many profess, you should now be really excited and ask the members of the above mentioned fraternity to investigate this with an open mind.
The deeper you look, the more you will find how little science supports the multi-billion dollar world wide AIDS circus.
It&#039;s shocking, but I leave it to your own investigation.

You should at least have read Len Horowitz&#039;s
&quot;AIDS and EBOLA - emerging viruses&quot; (available at www.tetrahedron.org)
and of course Peter H. Duesberg&#039;s &quot;Inventing the AIDS virus&quot; by now, I guess.
Then try to refute these 2 monumental investigative works by asking members of the medical &quot;fraternity&quot; to point out the seminal articles and studies that would allow you to dissmiss their claims.

You will be surprised how mum they go.

Georg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Paul,<br />
obviously you have a very different outlook on life and how &#8220;truth&#8221; is determined in society.<br />
When I speak of science, I do not necessarily mean &#8220;approved&#8221; science.<br />
I believe our constitution and if not the constitution, than natural law, gives us the right to investigate our reality freely and protected from harassment by entrenched interests, be that economic ineterests or the interest of academia not to have the foundations of their self-image  shaken.<br />
That means of course without approval by any council or body or &#8220;fraternity&#8221;. (The biggest fraternity is the masonic order and you will be guessing by now that I don&#8217;t have too much love lost on them)<br />
Honesty of the researcher and the consistent results of a method will always prevail over irrelevant administrative hurdles.<br />
The systematic destruction of every initiative that Manto was proposing was never based on &#8220;science&#8221; and that you surely know.</p>
<p>It was ridicule, innuendo and character assassination.</p>
<p>Truth is not declared by acclamation and cannot be voted over.<br />
I do not claim to be an expert and will not be drawn into hair-splitting arguments.<br />
For your own education and that of all those who might be watching our little exchange, I challenge you to present a single serious study (according to your own criteria) which proves the claim that &#8220;ARVs are life prolonging&#8221; drugs. It may be for any of the known antiretrovirals, I don&#8217;t care. You will find none.<br />
The studies on which the approvals of ARVs for the treatment of AIDs were based were flawed. Mortalities were booked in the wron group and the whole thing looks very much like scientific fraud if investigated closer.<br />
The Movie &#8220;The constant gardener&#8221; is giving a hidden account of the study that lead to the approval of Nevirapine, btw, even though in the movie it is made to look like the ARVs are not ther prob, but some other drug.<br />
I&#8217;m not even asking you to show a study that &#8220;proves&#8221; that HIV casues AIDS.<br />
You would be staring into an abyss.<br />
Let&#8217;s take it one step at the time.<br />
In the meantime I hold that depending on the severity of their affliction 90-99 percent of the people who have benefetid from Tina&#8217;s nutritional health programme have fully recovered, not just walked a few steps, if you know what I mean. These cases have been followed over weeks and are well documented.</p>
<p>If you were enthusiastic about &#8220;combating AIDS&#8221; as so many profess, you should now be really excited and ask the members of the above mentioned fraternity to investigate this with an open mind.<br />
The deeper you look, the more you will find how little science supports the multi-billion dollar world wide AIDS circus.<br />
It&#8217;s shocking, but I leave it to your own investigation.</p>
<p>You should at least have read Len Horowitz&#8217;s<br />
&#8220;AIDS and EBOLA &#8211; emerging viruses&#8221; (available at <a href="http://www.tetrahedron.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.tetrahedron.org</a>)<br />
and of course Peter H. Duesberg&#8217;s &#8220;Inventing the AIDS virus&#8221; by now, I guess.<br />
Then try to refute these 2 monumental investigative works by asking members of the medical &#8220;fraternity&#8221; to point out the seminal articles and studies that would allow you to dissmiss their claims.</p>
<p>You will be surprised how mum they go.</p>
<p>Georg</p>
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		<title>By: orgonise</title>
		<link>http://www.orgoniseafrica.com/blog/so-what-if-manto-was-100-right-about-aids/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>orgonise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orgoniseafrica.com/blog/?p=62#comment-190</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sabotaged by the medical establishment...&quot; Do you mean to say that just about the entire medical fraternity in South Africa found fault (scientific, ethical, medical or otherwise) in the Prez&#039; understanding of HIV. Shock horror! And then you call for scientific debate. Dear Georg, surely by your own reasoning this debate has been concluded. What is more, it has been concluded by the very same people that you acknowledge should be leading such a debate - the scientists that you respect (see your paragraph 10).

Can AIDS be cured? You claim that it can. Telling us that Tina&#039;s patients can walk  (without referencing the medical study in which this unsubstantiated claim is verified) does not mean that the virus has been wiped clear from their system. Show me the evidence upon which your scientific debate can take place. Without doing so you are removing either the science or the debate.
Your pick. What is more, a failure to come up with verifiable evidence while continuing to make claims of &#039;easy cures&#039; is now, following the conviction and international condemnation of Dr. Rath, a legal offence.

Oh, and while on the subject of scientific rigour, I look forward to your substantiation of &quot;a strange coalition of BIG PHARMA funded Aids activists&quot;.
If you want play on the terrain of evidence and science then name but one...
In fact, I shall make it easier by telling you and your readers that the accounts of the vast majority of those organisations to which I presume you infer are fully accessible on their websites.

A majority of SA&#039;s NGO organisations working in the field of HIV were created to challenge &#039;BIG PHARMA&#039; to make drugs more cheaply (and therefore more
equitably) available to developing countries. More court applications have been made against this international cohort than against Manto herself, and that is some record. And the result, generic drugs made in developing countries and in South Africa itself. Hardly the BIG PHARMA of the West...

And before you fall into the most obvious and most flawed rebuttal of my argument, I am in the employ of government, working in the field of health.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sabotaged by the medical establishment&#8230;&#8221; Do you mean to say that just about the entire medical fraternity in South Africa found fault (scientific, ethical, medical or otherwise) in the Prez&#8217; understanding of HIV. Shock horror! And then you call for scientific debate. Dear Georg, surely by your own reasoning this debate has been concluded. What is more, it has been concluded by the very same people that you acknowledge should be leading such a debate &#8211; the scientists that you respect (see your paragraph 10).</p>
<p>Can AIDS be cured? You claim that it can. Telling us that Tina&#8217;s patients can walk  (without referencing the medical study in which this unsubstantiated claim is verified) does not mean that the virus has been wiped clear from their system. Show me the evidence upon which your scientific debate can take place. Without doing so you are removing either the science or the debate.<br />
Your pick. What is more, a failure to come up with verifiable evidence while continuing to make claims of &#8216;easy cures&#8217; is now, following the conviction and international condemnation of Dr. Rath, a legal offence.</p>
<p>Oh, and while on the subject of scientific rigour, I look forward to your substantiation of &#8220;a strange coalition of BIG PHARMA funded Aids activists&#8221;.<br />
If you want play on the terrain of evidence and science then name but one&#8230;<br />
In fact, I shall make it easier by telling you and your readers that the accounts of the vast majority of those organisations to which I presume you infer are fully accessible on their websites.</p>
<p>A majority of SA&#8217;s NGO organisations working in the field of HIV were created to challenge &#8216;BIG PHARMA&#8217; to make drugs more cheaply (and therefore more<br />
equitably) available to developing countries. More court applications have been made against this international cohort than against Manto herself, and that is some record. And the result, generic drugs made in developing countries and in South Africa itself. Hardly the BIG PHARMA of the West&#8230;</p>
<p>And before you fall into the most obvious and most flawed rebuttal of my argument, I am in the employ of government, working in the field of health.</p>
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